If I understand the story correctly...

Basically, if you look at the series as a whole, Snake (and Raiden in the 2nd game) was actually the "bad guy" the whole time. Snake was just a pawn executing the will of The Patriots. In the first two 8-bit games, Snake was sent in to quell Big Boss' attempts to establish the "Outer Heaven" that opposed Zero's interpretation of The Boss' will. Ocelot and Liquid in MGS1 were trying to take over REX to use against The Patriots. Solidus and Liquid/Ocelot in MGS2 were trying to take over GW to use against The Patriots. And in MGS4, Liquid/Ocelot was trying to destroy JD and set everyone free from The Patriots' stranglehold (it's arguable, and according to the story likely doubtful, that Liquid/Ocelot would have used his control of the newly promoted GW for "world domination" like it was presented to us throughout the game. He just wanted to release Big Boss and end the reign of The Patriots). Ultimately, Snake only becomes the "good guy" because Naomi's virus was able to take down JD (Naomi = the real hero?).

Anyway, this leads to my question:

So, since Liquid/Ocelot is basically trying to do "good" and destroy The Patriots, and since EVA was on Ocelot's side in the past and working toward the same basic goals (release Big Boss and stop Zero/Patriots), then why did EVA oppose Liquid/Ocelot and try to keep the bio-mort from him? Was this just a ruse by EVA to keep up the appearance that Liquid was not really Ocelot (with EVA ultimately only perishing because of FOXDIE)? Did EVA not know what Ocelot's ultimate plan was? This part just seems confusing to me right now.

Snake was playing a good guys role in MGS2 by the way. Anyway, Ocelot, believing himself to be Liquid, wanted to not only destroy JD, but establish his own rule after it, some horrific Chaotic world full of Proxy Wars, a more demented version of Outer Heaven, hence why she didn't give 'Liquid' the Biomort. Ocelot and the other Non-AI Patriots plan was to trick the AIs into trying to stop 'Liquid' with Snake, thinking Naomi had given him a Virus to stop GW and 'Liquid', Naomis virus actually destroyed the entire Patriot Network. However Sunny (THE real Hero) altered the Virus, so that all the core necessities of Modern Society would remain, while stil obliterating JDs Malicious Intent.

Thought the AIs had some revenge, once again using Snake to kill everyone of the 'Traitor' Patriots. 

Well... Was Liquid a good guy, if you overlook his intentions against The Patriots? I'm not so sure about that.. I could be wrong though... In the last fight, I'm not so sure, but I thought there was some brotherly love in there...

I also have a question of my own; What was Liquid's real name? Was it Adam? EVA calls him by that (or maybe she called Snake by that) in the boat fight, but did she refer to Ocelot (he's the same from MGS3, and he was AKA Adam) in appearance, or her actual "son".

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DRE-X wrote:
adam is ocelot, and i dont know what liquids name is.

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Hmm, alright, thanks for that.

And thanks for the Database suggestion, downloaded it before, looked through it, but didn't really think of it to answer my questions. Silly me... Gonna go check now. 

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Mastafarian 3 wrote:

Snake was playing a good guys role in MGS2 by the way. Anyway, Ocelot, believing himself to be Liquid, wanted to not only destroy JD, but establish his own rule after it, some horrific Chaotic world full of Proxy Wars, a more demented version of Outer Heaven, hence why she didn't give 'Liquid' the Biomort. Ocelot and the other Non-AI Patriots plan was to trick the AIs into trying to stop 'Liquid' with Snake, thinking Naomi had given him a Virus to stop GW and 'Liquid', Naomis virus actually destroyed the entire Patriot Network. However Sunny (THE real Hero) altered the Virus, so that all the core necessities of Modern Society would remain, while stil obliterating JDs Malicious Intent.

 

Thought the AIs had some revenge, once again using Snake to kill everyone of the 'Traitor' Patriots. 

Message Edited by Mastafarian 3 on 08-05-2008 12:47 PM

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Ahhh, ok. So Ocelot took over so much of Liquid's psyche that their plans melded together? That actually makes perfect sense. I was under the impression that even though Ocelot grafted Liquid's psyche onto his own, he had full control of his personality and only wanted to complete his plan of destroying the Patriots.

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GatorBait wrote:

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Mastafarian 3 wrote:

Snake was playing a good guys role in MGS2 by the way. Anyway, Ocelot, believing himself to be Liquid, wanted to not only destroy JD, but establish his own rule after it, some horrific Chaotic world full of Proxy Wars, a more demented version of Outer Heaven, hence why she didn't give 'Liquid' the Biomort. Ocelot and the other Non-AI Patriots plan was to trick the AIs into trying to stop 'Liquid' with Snake, thinking Naomi had given him a Virus to stop GW and 'Liquid', Naomis virus actually destroyed the entire Patriot Network. However Sunny (THE real Hero) altered the Virus, so that all the core necessities of Modern Society would remain, while stil obliterating JDs Malicious Intent.

 

Thought the AIs had some revenge, once again using Snake to kill everyone of the 'Traitor' Patriots. 

Message Edited by Mastafarian 3 on 08-05-2008 12:47 PM

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Ahhh, ok. So Ocelot took over so much of Liquid's psyche that their plans melded together? That actually makes perfect sense. I was under the impression that even though Ocelot grafted Liquid's psyche onto his own, he had full control of his personality and only wanted to complete his plan of destroying the Patriots.

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Yeah, kinda, Ocelot basically tricked his own mind into thinking he was actually Liquid, from then on, from any point of view other than physical he was Liquid.

I was under the impression that everyone was just playing an act.  I'll try to explain as best I can my own point of view.

***Spoilers***

 Ocelot started his act in MGS2, by pretending that Liquid was taking over his mind.  If you remember at the end of MGS4, when your fighting Ocelot, he sort of points to Snake, and at that same instant a flash of the young Ocelot from MGS3 shows.  He even says he was Liquids Doppelganger, which litterally translated from German means "double-goer" or someone who is acting the same as another person.  Thats what made me realize Ocelot was in control of his mind the whole time. 

 Eva, it seemed, started her role when you meet up with her in Act 3. 

   Eva didnt try to hide the fact that she loved Big Boss.  Wouldnt it stand to reason that you would recognize that the eye missing from the body in the van was on the wrong side.  Also since she was in contact with Naomi, wouldnt it make sense that she told Eva about the new Fox Die?  Eva knew that she would start to die as soon as she was in contact with Snake.  She had no other option but to play her part into tricking the AI system into thinking she actually had Big Boss.  Liquid knew that, while that wasnt the real Big Boss, the body (Solidus) had the same genetic code of of Big Boss, so he had to go after the body. 

The final nail in the coffin for me was the Patriot system itself.  If the system is advanced enough to gain information all the way down to the cellular level of a PMC hooked up to it, couldnt it see through an unconvincing performance from Ocelot, Naomi, and Eva.  This would explain why Ocelot had to go so far as to kill so many PMCs in Act 3, why Naomi never really tried to excape from Ocelot, and why Eva went to such great lengths to protect a "false" Big Boss.