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FAQs and Flames about 1080i issue 0. What's the issue? Many PS3 games only support 720p and lower resolutions. There are many reasons this is a problem: For the many 1080i HDTV owners whose TVs do not support 720p, this means they are stuck playing our "next gen" "only True HD system" games in standard (or "enhanced" if you want to be technical) 480p definition. Any other HD device would simply convert the signal to 1080i before displaying. A lot of these users don't even know this is happening and just assume that the PS3 has bad graphics compared to other systems. - Owners of 1080p TVs would like to be able to take advantage of the full resolution of their TVs.
- There are actually a few models of 1080i SONY HDTVs that will accept a 720p signal, but then downscale that signal to 480p instead of upscale it to 1080i (read the fine print in your manual). A lot of the owners of these TVs don't even realize why the games look so bad- thus further increasing public perception of inferior graphics on what many believe to be a superior system.
There is a public perception that the competition has superior graphics since it can output everything in 1080p. Even though in reality this is just upscaling of the same signal (or lower) than a typical PS3 game, there is a perception of higher quality. And anyone in the business world can tell you, perception is reality... If customers think your product sucks... then your product sucks- in the end, it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong when you're looking at your sales...
1. Where did the old thread go?
The old thread was locked due to getting way off topic, discussing updates, discussing the competition's system and its scaling ability, and generally being too long and cluttered to be worth anything anyway.
2. What TVs are affected by this issue? Aren't they just cheap old TVs? Doesn't this only affect a few people?
Primarily CRTs made between 1998 and 2005 or so. Many of these TVs were top of the line and in some people's opinions still look better than many LCD/Plasma TVs made today. These TVs are owned by a LOT of people- estimates have been as high as 40% of the HD population, but I suspect the real number is a little bit lower. LarryG60 adds- HDTVs made their debut to consumers in 1998 with PBS being the only HD off-air signal available. Hitatchi was the first CRT RPTV to accept 720p input in 2002, however the internal scaler was considered to be less than adequate and not worth the high price tag. RenderFX adds- The phrase "on some older HDTVs" is nothing but marketing spin at its best. There are countless HDTVs *still* being sold with 'only' 480i, 480p, and 1080i. Example-
3. Why don't you buy an external scaler?
Because they cost a lot of money and don't work very well. If you've found a low cost one that works though, please let us know- I'll include a description here.
leetfoo- I purchased a Harmon Kardon AVR-745 reciever for around $750 (needed a new reciever anyway) and it scales content from 720p to 1080i over hdmi or component flawlessly (no delay, great picture. All around a pretty good reciever).
robnix- purchased a Sony STR-DG1100 for around $400 and it will scale any component input signal to a 1080i HDMI output. Note that it will not scale HDMI to HDMI or component to component- only component-in to hdmi-out.
jdirty01- purchased a Gefen GTV HIDEFS (dedicated scaler) for around $300- HDCP compliant and all around pretty nice. Read his full review here: http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.i
d=ps3&message.id=3887517#M3887517 per Jia_Harlow, no Yamaha units will do this over componenet. Yamaha support states - "No there has never been such a unit that would convert 720p to 1080i over component.". Note that nothing is said here about hdmi, just no componenet scaling.
4. Why isn't this getting much press anymore?
Good question. It was a huge stir at release and now is barely mentioned. That's part of why I have "the list" since we can't trust the game makers to tell us the truth, and we can't trust the press to call them on it.
5. If you can't play 720p, how do you watch television on the 720p channels (i.e. Fox)?
ALL HD receivers scale the output to match the television. The incoming signal's native resolution is unimportant.
6. "But 720P looks better than 1080i!" OR "But games are better in 720p!"
First, that isn't a question. Second, that has nothing to do with this issue. Third, I personally disagree, but respect your right to have this opinion. Other incorrect re-hashes of this- 6a. 1080i is just like 540p... which is less than 720p... see... so... it sucks, right!? No, no it isn't. Please stop parroting this ignorant nonsense. This is a totally incorrect view that has been passed around as fact lately. A 1080i signal contains two fields that are both 1920*540, which are displayed fast enough to blend into one 1920*1080 picture when viewed by the human eye- we see 1080 lines of horizontal resolution. A 540p signal would only contain 540 horizontal lines.. period, and the eye would see only 540 lines. Also worth noting- a real 540p would be in 960*540 resolution, not 1920*540. So please... just stop. 6b. Most 1080i TVs downscale the image to almost 720p anyway, so the quality sucks anyway, right? No they don't, I don't know where this even came from but I've been seeing it a lot lately and it's completely incorrect. A real 1080i TV shows 1920*1080 lines of resolution, period. Your 720p native LCD or plasma may do some kind of wacky conversion, but our 1080 native CRTs don't. 6c. 720p to 1080i isn't an upscale, it's a downscale! This doesn't matter, but it isn't true anyway. While you may not prefer 1080 over 720, it is technically an "upscale" since you are interpolating missing pixels and increasing the overall pixel count. Decrease pixel count = downscale, increase pixel count = upscale. Reducing 1080 to 720 = less pixels = downscale. This is regardless of whether you prefer the proressive signal enough to make up for the lost image quality. 6d. Native Resolutions > ScaledCommon misconception that for some reason only really started taking hold after the PS3 came out (fanboy arguement perhaps?). On most TVs, scaling is happening anyway. Device scaling > TV scaling. Also, 1080p upscaled from 720p > 720p native. Until the PS3 came out, no one in their right mind would even consider arguing that. The fanboys have spread serious misinformation on this one. If scaling is so terrible, why do upscaling DVD players exist? Do they make the image worse? This arguement is so ridiculous it's hard to even take seriously.
7. PS3 games are still great at 480p!
Still not a question... But if it was, the answer is "so are PS2 games". Why should I bother getting a $60 PS3 game when there are 8000 great PS2 games that play in the same resolution and cost less? Post 1.8 patch- I can now play PS2 games in higher resolutions than PS3 games.
8. Has Sony ever promised to fix this issue?
Yes, back in early December after release they acknowledged the issue and claimed it could be fixed via firmware. A few weeks later they retracted their statement, but gave no new info. This was the last official word on the issue.
9. How come you blame Sony when you should be blaming the devs?
Actually, I blame both. That's why I include contact info for the devs. I've emailed most of them. Sony is at fault for releasing an HD device without scaling, and the devs are at fault for taking the easy road and making their games 720p only (or just not being aware of the issue).
10. Wait, why is it Sony's fault?
Because they released an HD device that does not scale. Such a thing is incredibly rare- so far only one other such device has been known to exist (a 720p HD video camera someone went to great lengths to find). 10.a. But didn't the orignal Xbox not scale? I don't consider the original Xbox a HD device. It's a standard def device that had HD tacked on. Hence the fact that only 2% (20/1000) of the games play in hi def.
11. Does the PS3 have a hardware scaler?
No one knows outside of Sony, and they aren't talking. A lot of theories exist on this one. I personally think it probably doesn't, but the hardware itself should be more than sufficient to handle in software something that has already been possible on every other HD device for 10-ish years.
12. Why do you waste your time talking about this?
Because if we say something, it might get fixed. If we say nothing, it's a safe bet it won't. Or Because we care about it. Why do you waste time posting on a thread you don't care about?
13. SONY DOES NOT READ THESE FORUMS. Can you get that through your head?
And you know this because you work for Sony? And you 'd like to talk about what? Pretty flowers and puppy dogs? We're here to discuss things of importance to ps3 users. For many of us, this is an important issue. In addtion to discussing the issue, we're compiling a complete list of 1080i games so that we don't get screwed into buying a 720p game (like COD with its "1080i supported" misprint...) I have no idea if Sony ever sees any of this, and frankly I don't care. If enough people are aware of the issue, maybe something will happen. If no one says anything, it's not very likely. 13.a. There is no fight it is pointless to post anything here, Im sure they are working on something and not because of this post but because they already know people are not happy without this. So everyone who is posting here is just wasting their time and dont feel you accomplished anything at all when they do make the games compatible they were working on it the whole time none of your letters or posts meant anything.
14. How can I help?
Let us know you are out there! It helps dispel the "only a couple of people are affected by this" myth. If you choose not to buy a game because of the lack of 1080i support, let people know- the devs and Sony both need to know that they are losing sales. Send an email to the dev (a nice one, not a flame) to explain your position, and put a counter in your sig here so Sony and other users can see.
15. Close this thread. Didn't the 1.8 patch fix this?
No, the 1.8 patch added scaling for PS1, PS2, and DVDs. Ironically, I can now play Resident Evil 4 (Or even RE1 for that matter) in 1080i, but I still have to look at last gen resolutions for PS3 games.
16. Have you noticed that the movies you download in the PSN Store say they are 720p, but still play in 1080i?
Yes, yes we have. The XMB scales. PS1 and PS2 games scale. DVDs scale (with HDMI). The only thing that doesn't scale is PS3 games.
17. Did you know that if your TV does not support 720p, then the European Information Communications and Consumer Electronics Technology Industry Association states that your television is NOT HD READY?
Sure, and I'll be sure to care when America (and the rest of the world) joins the EU. You may have missed it, but America stopped caring about European regulations back in 1776.
18. Why do you say game boxes have lied and you can't trust what is written on the back, nor what the devs say?
First- here's proof that COD3 was released in a package stating "1080i support"- note this is from Activision's actual support site. (thanks jer/jh2112) Also- same issue occured with "Stranglehold" Next- some games that are natively 720p but WILL scale to 1080i still only say 720p on the back. Examples include VF5 and NBA Street Homecourt. Next- Devs promise 1080 and then deliver 720 due to time constraints, insufficient hardware, lazy programmers, or whatever excuse you like this week. Examples include Motorstorm and Oblivion- both were promised at 1080, then came in at 720. Lastly- Devs say 720p but fail to mention that the game will scale to 1080. Ninja Gaiden Sigma is an example. This is why "the list" exists and is important to many of us.
19. Have you heard if Game <INSERT FUTURE UNRELEASED GAME NAME HERE> will support 1080?
Doesn't matter if we have- see the question above this one. Until it is released and confirmed, it won't be on "the list".
20. Why are you hating on Sony? Are you a <competitor> fanboy?
I love Sony. If we had PS3 scaling, I'd be a Sony Fanboy. The only company I like more than Sony is Squaresoft. My house and car are covered in Sony things. I've owned a few other consoles, but they mostly gathered dust while I played my PS1 and PS2. I don't bring this issue to light to hate on Sony- I bring it up because it affects me and my ability to love my expensive new console as much as I'd like to.
21. Hey- here's a great TV you guys should buy!
Not a question, but if it was, the answer would be - we can't talk about that here or we could get locked. There is a ludicrously large and useless thread somewhere with the words "one and only" on it that is the only place you can discuss such things.
22. What games support 1080p?
All games that support 1080i also support 1080p. 1080i and 1080p are the same resolution (pixel count), just displayed in two different ways. As a side effect, this means that those of you with 1080p TVs who would like more 1080p content also have a stake in this.
-Foo
Message Edited by HouseMorton on 09-21-2009 02:22 PM
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